Discussion in 'Non-Pyro chat' started by Artfullt, Oct 8, 2018.
What’s brexit ? Not heard of that
We need what the Liberal Democrats were supposed to be... the best bits of the left and the right
Well, I did say when they went into coalition that they’d regret it and when the right started moving we got the perfect storm backlash on the other side. Never been a better time for a centrist party and there isn’t one any more. Would have been a hugely important bulwark in these otherwise worrying times politically. There, I said it!
bollocks to left/right/centre/liberals/tories/corbynites/remoaners/brexit/trump et al
what the world needs is more of this:
At present we seem to have it more the other way around with this lot!
You know what scares me? Tories being in Downing Street, 125 000 homeless children, criminals reigning due to ruthless police cutbacks, people dying in the streets as the safety net withers and weakens, small business owners persecuted, young people with good jobs and no hope of owning a home, all while the richest continue to prosper and prosper on the back of this misery.
Injuries will rise as health and safety laws will no longer be "mad", what with us not having Brussels telling us what to do, but that will be offset by the NHS getting an extra billion quid a week. Plus you'll be able to bring any firework you like directly through customs in person by using your magic black passport.
Or as most of Europe and Scandinavia would say "a realist". Strange how mainstream policies that work for the benefit of ordinary people are demonised in the UK as being extreme. Then again, looking at how the owners of the media benefit, not strange at all...
Not by me! I was trying to not go to war on this .... but my comment was about the man. I think he’s simply not capable of leading the country. As much the reality that he’d not get elected as his stubbornness that simply won’t cut it even within his own party. His policies I largely agree with and share your disdain for the way the media manipulated the electorate
So you agree with anti-semitism then....
Apologies in advance for bringing pesky facts into this but Labour actually have lower rates of antisemitism than the general population and even that has decreased since Corbyn became leader. On the flip side the conservatives have a higher rate of antisemitism than both labour and the general public.
If you genuinely want a debate about it I’d be delighted to oblige you. Frankly it’s a bit of a peurile premise and another line fed by a heavily politically motivated media and, sadly, by a series of invested organisations.
The Labour party has just gone through one of the most honest and brave debates about the issue of racism and specifically anti semitism that you’ll ever see in politics. It’s what democracy is all about. The ability to challenge the received wisdom and in spite of the noise of opposition. Despite my saying that Corbyn couldn’t and shouldn’t lead the country he’s a hell of a principled man. And he takes no shit from anyone despite the noise around him. Large dose of arrogance to be fair but comendable in many ways. And his, and many of his party’s determination to stand up against the persecution of arabs by a single minded zionist Israeli and US backed regime should be applauded for its principles.
The IHRA sponsored defintion of anti semitism is a bit of a minefield. Its examples are generally accepted as being clunky and too generalitic especially in relation to the links to Israel and zionism. But they’ve been widely adopted partly as a concession to the importance of allowing a horrifically historical persecuted people the right to the self determination of defining their own accusers. Labour insiders will tell you that their own debate has ranged widely across the whole issue including tightening up on the examples but also being sensistive to the need to protect the right of individuals and collectives to criticise Israel.
Every organisation has its share of racists from the willful to the accidental. Labour is no exception but is almost certainly by any measure the least racist of any of our political parties. But they chose to debate a sensitive issue in plain sight of the world’s attention. Some would applaud them for that and others will jump up and down and claim they must be racist. Bizarre really but there you go.
One of Corbyn’s main problems is his very real stubbornness that more than borders on arrogance. He’ll refuse to play the political and media game and that makes him almost impossible to elect to a role that demands the ability to compromise. So he’s refused constant demands that he accepts this or that or apologises for the other. Again, you can take that if you like as evidence that he’s hiding something nefarious. Or you can see it as a guy who doesn’t and won’t play at politics the way we’re ysed to people playing it. Like Boris Johnson for example.
So again just to be clear, all sorts of faults with the man and his party. But there’s a bit more to it than the three word tabloid headlines people are being fed daily.
Ironically, the tag line so readily used against Blair as an illegal warmonger seems to not hold any sway when looking at someone like Corbyn. If people are so obsessed about going to war illegally then is there any better leader to align yourself to than Corbyn, who’d bust wide open the Saudi alliance and its arms deal diplomacy?
No, the reality is that these are just media soundbites latched onto by an easily manipulated electorate, even if they contradict each other. The far shorter and less media discussed enquiry into the invasion of Lybia largely came to the same conclusions about motivation and particularly the poor planning for post invasion stability as Chilcott did about Iraq. But in the former case Cameron had the benefit of recent history of Iraq to guide him and his armed forces. It made no difference. Can’t recall the last time I heard Cameron get the same sort of attention as Blair. I wonder why!
thanks for the patronising lecture Tiltman......
the way I see it , I have to pick the best of (to my circumstances) the rotten lot. I think a lot of the corbyn fans were not around the last time we had a truly socialist government (Callaghan), I was only a kid but I remember my Dad being on 3 days, power cuts, queuing for petrol. it was not a good time.
how will he fund his psuedo communist dream? increase taxes on the rich and big business?? they will all just leave the country and the poor suckers in the middle (ie me and millions of others) will be taxed upto the eyeballs until the whole thing goes pop and we are on our knees in front of the IMF again.
have you seen the state of Venezuela?
as for being principled, I think he is like a benign godfather who is happy for his mafia (aka Momentum) to do his dirty work for him. anyone who disagrees with "the great leader" faces deselection as momentum members infiltrate the local party, look at Frank Field who is an honourable, principled and respected MP...is that democracy in action?
"And his, and many of his party’s determination to stand up against the persecution of arabs by a single minded zionist Israeli and US backed regime should be applauded for its principles"....hmmm, bit strong here tiltman, especially as Hamas, Hezbollah et al are not known for their restraint. Israel are no saints but then again if you were surrounded on all sides by neighbours who hated you and want to "wipe you off the planet" to quote Iran, how would you behave towards them? (yes I know Iran is not next to Israel, however they supply Hamas etc who are).
interested to see how you come up with the fact Labour are the least racist of our political parties, The Guardian or the well balanced BBC perhaps? they didn't choose to debate the issue, it was forced on them, but perhaps the majority of the jewish population have been manipulated by the evil right wing media and other "invested organisations".
Fantastic post skyblues
Oh dear John , just when I thought we was going to get along .....
Like I said the other day, I’ve never known anyone on social media to change their views from a debate and I was trying not to get involved.
Skyblue I AM old enough to remember the Callaghan government. And like I said ... I don’t think Corbyn is fit to be a Prime Minister so I’m not sure what point you’re making at me. We won’t agree about a host of things from media bias, through economic principles, taxation, and any number of other things. So there’s no point debating it really.
But the last part .... been a bit of a misunderstanding here I’m afraid. The whole news story was because Labour were revisting their definition of AS for their new codes of conduct from July and through to conference. THAT’s what led to the uproar in the media and Jewish groups in the first place not the other way around.
There was nothing patronising in mine I thought, certainly not as much as in your reply anyway, as with your first one that I replied to. Was a bit inflamatory wasn’t it? Peace
Certainly a bona fide third party would help things a lot. both Labour and Tories have strong blocks of support from people (and communities) who have always voted that way ie strong labour areas, strong tory areas . example north east and labour etc . as these people grow old and pass on then new votes might find appeal in a third party.
parties change over time as well; Trump and Lincoln were the same party. and of course labours big rebranding in the 90s.
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